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Journalists attacked..

Participant: codc01

Date: 2003-04-21 05:56:34

There is still no sign of having an inquiry, but the Guardian give out new information which i think is probably be true:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,940465,00.html

In short: The Captain of the soldiers admitted a tank fired, because they saw a glint of light - they thought binoculars - which makes sense if the glint of light was probably from the camera which was filming. They were never told that journalists were in that Hotel... So there's a problem somewhere higher up in the chain of command.

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Journalists attacked..

Participant: Barretm82

Date: 2003-04-21 13:48:53

Well a few things you are over looking here.

A. If you have mortar fire coming in from across the river, then you will probably have a forward observer. (Someone with a good view directing the incoming shells) That observer could very well be from the hotel calling in coordinates. The tanks were clearly under attack as 4 troops where wounded and the tanks hit.

B. The glint was caught by all the tanks, this is the tricky one. If the camera man was filming each tank and you get hit with glint on say five different points. It is a bit like someone shining a mirror in your eyes, then that would appear that someone is tagging your positions. If rounds are incoming and getting closer then someone is certainly tagging your positions. It may be that the Camera man didn't realize this effect. I think this is why Camera people really need to be trained before entering combat zones in the first place because simple things can get you killed.

C. There was an investigation of the building and some 'suspects' were taken into questioning. Although, I doubt you would be able to convict them on something like being forward observers as it is so difficult to prove.

D. As for a problem in the chain of command, I very seriously doubt that. You have 1/4 million troops in action, it is not possible to think of every possible scenario and label every possible building. Personally I think that journalists have to take responsibility for their lives. If you go into harms way you have to be prepared for the consequences. Eventually Murphy’s Law is going to catch up with you and give you a bad day.

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Journalists attacked..

Participant: codc01

Date: 2003-04-21 14:39:35

Maybe i was not clear enough in my message, what you are saying is exactly what i was trying to say...

Except for point D) even though i completely agree with you, i think its kind of strange that the soldiers were not warned of the significance of the hotel... I'm very sceptical regarding this.

p.s : Sorry for my spelling mistakes.

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Journalists attacked..

Participant: Barretm82

Date: 2003-04-21 21:31:06

i think its kind of strange that the soldiers were not warned of the significance of the hotel... I'm very sceptical regarding this.

I think part of the surprise was how quick Baghdad fell; also I think these guys were all in Chemical defense suits in 100 degree weather. Yes that sound trite, but it’s a series of little things going wrong that lead to big problems. I also recall two troops dieing around that time due to heat exhaustion, but I could be wrong.

I think you can imagine the state of mind of guys who are nearly passing out because of heat stroke; they are not going to be very adept on the battle field. Add some combat to that mix and it is amazing more people didn't get killed or that the building wasn't leveled.

I really can't see a public inquiry to this one. Although there would be a debriefing and a military analysis.

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Journalists attacked..

Participant: fatmomma

Date: 2003-04-21 19:20:58

The Americans should have you on staff. You make up more elaborate excuses for their mistakes than they do.
What excuse did you give for them bombing our Canadians?

These Americans all appear to be very young with not much real experience; where are their commanding officers.
Anyone who has followed the war knew that the Palestinian hotel was full of journalists and should know they would be using binoculars.
They are living by the shoot first; ask questions later.
Again, I will note that the British Troops do not seem to makes as many mistakes. The Troops need better leadership and communication. How are these soldiers who have mistakenly killed their own soldiers or other innocents deal with this. The guilt could really damage them.

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Journalists attacked..

Participant: Barretm82

Date: 2003-04-21 21:17:37

..."What excuse did you give for them bombing our Canadians? "...

That was un-called for; the pilots are hotdogs and have been found guilty. There is a big difference between air threats and being actually hit by mortar fire on the ground, therefore no comparison can be made here.

..."Anyone who has followed the war knew that the Palestinian hotel was full of journalists and should know they would be using binoculars."...

I hate to break it to you, but M1A1 tanks and Bradley vehicles don't come standard with televisions tuned to the CBC... ;)

..."Again, I will note that the British Troops do not seem to makes as many mistakes."...

Three notes there;
First, the U.S. has a multiple of the British troops.

Second Basra is considerably smaller then Baghdad, thus less difficult to handle.

Third, the republican guards and Saddam's dressed in black crack troops were stationed in Baghdad.

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Journalists attacked..

Participant: Barretm82

Date: 2003-04-21 21:38:34

..."How are these soldiers who have mistakenly killed their own soldiers or other innocents deal with this. The guilt could really damage them."...

Yes, you are right here. I have had long arguments with some U.S. people on that point and friendly fire problems.

If you ever thought that I'm difficult with you, you really haven't seen nothing compared to 'discussions' I had with them. :)

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Journalists attacked..

Participant: fatmomma

Date: 2003-04-22 08:39:35

Barrett; I keep remembering the Oklahama bombing was carried out by a veteran of the first gulf war; Do we really know what set him off. Is this war going to send home more like him.
(sorry, having a senior moment- his name just won't come through till I have posted this).
I don't believe the bombing of the Canadians was only the pilots fault; yes I do think there was some hotdogging by them but I am aware that they were not briefed on the Canadians being there. The Canadians were not informed to be using special beacons.
During the heat of battle; I realize there is no time to insure civillian or friendly troops are not hit but many of these incidents did NOT happen during the heat of battle. I question why the
American personnel who were taken prisoners by the Iraqis could happen to take a wrong turn; why would they not be travelling in a convoy. They were mechanics and cooks; they would not be front leaders?? Did they not have communication equipment to alert others in their command when they were being attacked.

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Journalists attacked..

Participant: Barretm82

Date: 2003-04-23 13:50:02

..."Barrett; I keep remembering the Oklahama bombing was carried out by a veteran of the first gulf war; Do we really know what set him off. Is this war going to send home more like him."...

Heck I hope not.

This gets back to my point that a certain percentage of the world's populations are sociopaths, and as long as these types exist we will never have worldwide peace.

If at the stroke of midnight everyone in the world became conscientious and truly empathetic with others then dreadful things like that would never happen again.

Unfortunately there are millions in this world who simply have no emotion and empathy for others, anyone of these people like Saddam or his thousands of cohorts could put a weapon to our heads, wipe off the blood and then have lunch without a second thought if there were no consequences of law, or if they misjudged others intent to hold them to account.

This gets to my point about law, “laws against murder for say, can only be effective in a setting were those breaking the laws are not the ones making the laws”. This is why I think many people see the U.N. as an answer, and it would be, if it wasn’t made up of people like Saddam and the U.N. actually enforced its own sanctions (Laws). You can’t have 12 years of sanctions and broken laws with no actions, eventually the police have to show up at the door and physically deal with the matter. (But I digress…)

As for the pilots,
I agree with you, some good points. I'll list what a few things that trouble me.

a. The Pilot reduced speed
b. reduced altitude
c. Didn't identify the target.
d. Based on the above three should have left the area; also no surface to air missiles threats.
e. Indication that the pilots had previously missed opportunities to 'hit' targets and may have been predisposed to getting a 'hit' that day.
f. Also questions of using drugs (speed) for extended missions.

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Journalists attacked..

Participant: codc01

Date: 2003-04-22 08:42:59

I'm just pointing out the facts, and what the soldiers said is quite possible. Of course, I'm quite skeptical also, as i simply can't comprehend that they did not at least have a hint that there were journalists in the vicinity.

It also does not explain why the offices of Al-Jazeera and Abu-Dubai were bombed.

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