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Contributor: Vox
Date: 2003-03-12 22:11:10
I think you have some good ideas.
I also agree it would be better to have a UN with its own "police force". The tough part is how to engineer such a body. The UN is really a sum of its members and relies on goodwill and solidarity to accomplish actions as opposed to "window-dressing" with words.
Perhaps you can suggest ways to accomplish this. A key ingredient might include enduring respect from all member states. I think it can happen but it will take much time and courage.
I note that many critics of the US are also critics of Israel, often to the extent of completely discounting the threats posed by Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. To win the confidence of all earnest people, critics of the US and Israel must also view the Al Qaeda, Saddam Hussein and even Gaullist politics objectively.
I am also a critic of Israel and have, on more than one occasion, written to the US State department to complain about US policies regarding Israel and the Middle East. IMO Israel is extremely dysfunctional. Its government is a total failure to its people, both Jews and Arabs. Its complete failure as a viable nation state is a primary reason why it is so dependent on the US and has dragged the US into confrontation with Arab fundamentalists. It is also a good example of how organized religion can sometimes poison the minds of people. As things stands, Israeli government policies have a good chance of triggering WWIII.
UN resolutions against Israel should be reviewed and enforced if still relevant and the nations embroiled in following up on 1441 should devote as much effort to tackle Israel's intransigence as well as the US's intransigence. If France, Germany and Russia are truly honourable they might take this opportunity to work a deal with the US on its past record on these failed UN resolutions.
Finally, I think that countries with no separation between religion and state are unsustainable and would only result in violence, bloodshed and their own ultimate destruction. While religion can serve many people well IMO such "fundamentalist" nations are the creations of men with tiny minds, self-loathing and deep-seated fear. Unfortunately, history has no shortage of such fools. This human predicament repeats itself with each generation that we fail to educate and protect.
Vox Canadiana
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Contributor: Fleabag
Date: 2003-03-13 18:38:00
One of my ideas to encourage and foster involvement in, and commitment to, the unbiased enforcement of UN resolutions is an 'international militia'. Member nations could be asked (or required) to offer a fixed amount, or percentage, of it's military or citizens to do a certain term in the 'UN militia'. Adherence to these terms could earn the member nations 'credits' toward or in lieu of monetary contributions.
many countries, especially socialist ones, require a couple of years of military service from those capable for national defence. The UN as of now relies on such 'donated forces' for peacekeeping missions, but they have never been used to 'enforce' resolutions. There would be no comparable example of an impartial force in the world such as this. It would have to be able to also access military intelligence of it's member nations and also have some form of permanent military command structure.
This is a very rough idea of how the UN could make a viable 'world militia', but it is deeply dependent on the willingness of it's members to commit to world peace rather than it's own interests. However, in the long run, truly peaceful nations would not have to expend so much of it's own resources on 'self-defence' if there were a credible body (such as the UN) to rely on to come to it's aid in times of strife.
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Contributor: horton
Date: 2003-03-15 00:56:22
Have you been to Israel?
If your answer is not I see your comment comes from ignorance.
The real failure is the arab leadership, instead to give freedom to their people, maintains them in the middle ages, and promotes hatred.
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Contributor: fatmomma
Date: 2003-03-15 18:41:28
Yours is an emotional response and opinion. It is a 2 way street. Israel under Sharon has become extremely aggressive; disobeys UN resolutions and completely over reacts. When Mr Rabin was in power Israel was working towards peace. There are angry people on both sides who have had innocent children and other civillians murdered.
Israel would be more prone to seek peace with the Palestinians if it did not have full funding and backing from the USA; and the Palestinians may have more inclination to work towards peace if it was more equalized without American favoritism being shown to Israel
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Contributor: jwitt
Date: 2003-03-16 16:44:49
fatmomma
The issue of Israel and the Palestinians is deeply complex and needs to be approached in an historical context. Unfortunately, the media presents the conflict with deliberate bias toward one side or the other. It is quite difficult to find any reporting which is truly balanced, as opposed to badly polarized and unhelpful. I see the polarization of opinion toward one side or the other as a major part of the problem as opposed to part of the solution. I would have to cite comments such as the following as a prime example: "IMO Israel is extremely dysfunctional. Its government is a total failure to its people, both Jews and Arabs. Its complete failure as a viable nation state is a primary reason why it is so dependent on the US and has dragged the US into confrontation with Arab fundamentalists. It is also a good example of how organized religion can sometimes poison the minds of people. As things stands, Israeli government policies have a good chance of triggering WWIII".
As someone who has spent considerable time in both Israel and the West Bank, as well as elsewhere in the middle east, I would have to describe such statements as biased, seemingly uninformed and unhelpful. Like it or not, Israel has a public health, education and transportation system which puts Canada's to shame, and to dismiss the country as a "complete failure" is nonsense.
Horrible atrocities have and continue to be made by both the Israelis and the Palestinians, and the behaviour of both sides must be condemned, as does the current and past behaviour of many Arab countries who have deliberately fuelled the conflict by using the Palestinians as dupes and poster children for their own ends, and completely failed to do anything tangible or meaningful to improve their condition. You are quite correct that Sharon is a major problem. His program of wanton destruction will ensure a steady stream of well indoctrinated Palestinian youths with explosive belts for the forseeable future. However, he could also be described as a democratic reaction (albeit a misguided and unfortunate one)to Yasser Arafat's response (violence and bombings)to the real and rather extensive concessions (these included east Jerusalem and the removal of most settlements) made by Ehud Barak. Bad leadership on both sides has historically, and continues today to create serious obstacles. The US has a clear bias toward the Israelis while the Europeans have a clear bias toward the Palestinains. There just doesn't seem to be much in the way of balance anywhere, and this polarization of opinion in the West only serves the purposes of extreme elements among both the Palestinians and Israelis.
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Contributor: Vox
Date: 2003-03-17 19:14:29
You wrote:
"... I see the polarization of opinion toward one side or the other as a major part of the problem as opposed to part of the solution. I would have to cite comments such as the following as a prime example: "IMO Israel is ..."
I wish to correct you on your mistaken assumption.
IMO, there is no polarization as I only stated my opinion of Israel. I did not compare Israel to any other entity so that can be no polarization. Perhaps you subconsciously believed that I would naturally criticize Israel in deference to the Palestinians. My views were absolute - Israel is completely dysfunctional and its policies are unsustainable regardless of whom it is oppressing.
Israel is a total failure because it believes it can only exist by subjugating another people. The "fact" that, as you say, (Israel) can boast of "... a public health, education and transportation system which puts Canada's to shame..." only demonstrates how inhumane its policies are.
If a government can afford to be so generous to its own people then how can it justify its cruel and indiscriminate policies of punishing and crushing another people? It is curious that you should used a materialistic measure to validate your contention that Israel is not dysfunctional. IMO a person is most dysfunctional when he/she values material trappings beyond that of showing human dignity to another.
By its reprehensible and ineffective policies, the Israeli government is actually robbing its own people of the soul that it claims the Jewish faith bestows them with. I grant that you have visited Israel and the West Bank but I gather you did not visit any Palestinians while you were there. I personally have no desire or need to visit either of those places. I do admit I am making my judgement from a distance and I am open to more illuminating views if you have them.
Finally, I wish to add that I also have a very poor impression of the Palestinian "representation". I understand the impossible situation Israel finds itself in when it is expected to work with the corrupt Palestinian Authority. However, Israel's policy of indiscriminate punishment and annexation of people's homes will only create more injustice and justify future opposition. The tragic death yesterday of 23-year old Rachel Corrie should be a graphic example of how out-of-control Israel's aggressive policies have become. How can anyone believe their mission is so important that they would even risk driving a bulldozer over a defenseless young woman who is only trying to prevent destruction of people's homes? Can you now say "dysfunctional"?
Israel seems bent on achieving "victory" by successfully oppressing its detractors and non-Israeli inhabitants. It is a hopeless cause because it will never find peace this way. Locating Israel in Palestine was a big mistake from the beginning - a mistake that the European nations as well as Canada and the US must share equally with Israel, for it was the rejection of the Jews by these nations that led them to find a separate home. IMO, if Israelis want to be free from the threat of violence, an original goal for a homeland, they must co-exist and blend in more with the peoples of the region. Otherwise, Israelis will continue to live with an "outpost" mentality and the violence will only become more tragic.
Vox Canadiana
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Contributor: codc01
Date: 2003-03-18 13:20:05
I agree entirely with your point of view. I think your analysis is unbiased and very objective.
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Contributor: jwitt
Date: 2003-03-18 19:49:21
Vox,
I do understand where your coming from, in part. However, before I comment more fully on your response, I'd like some clarification on one point. You state "Israel is a total failure because it believes it can only exist by subjugating another people". Have you arrived at this conclusion on the basis of current Likud policies? or are there additional points you can present to support your hypothesis?- please elaborate. Also, I think we may both be guilty of pre-supposing a bit too much eg- "I gather you did not visit any Palestinians while you were there". One of the more memorable experiences (but not the fondest) of the time I spent living in the mideast was when I was detained by the Israeli Border Police while I was trying to hitch a ride from Nabulus to the Megiddo area after spending a few days with some Palestinian friends of mine.
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Contributor: Vox
Date: 2003-03-21 14:54:48
Thank you for your reply and clarification. The fact that you have Palestinian friends does help to explain and lend credibility to your views. What do your Palestinian friends think of the Israeli government?
As for presupposing and letting our egos get ahead of sensible judgement, I can honestly say this is not the case with my opinion of Israel. I perceive that it is also not the case for you in your opinions. I have no personal stakes in Israel or Palestine except for the seemingly unending tragedy and peril that their situation represents. My opinions are the product of years of observation and debates with my friends.
My opinion is that the current Israeli government and its policies mirror the views of hard-line Jewish cultural elements. These policies are basically racist and morally unconscionable. I do appreciate the impossible situation that Israel finds itself in. There are many intractable elements to the Palestinian milieu as well as the manner in which it has attracted fanatical Islamic support from outside Palestine.
To start with I think it was a monumental mistake to locate Israel in its biblical site. If people worry the US action in Iraq may result in a clash of religions then we have no further to look than Israel. The only way to avoid making Israel's first mistake a fatal one is to have Israel integrate with Palestine and embrace the surrounding peoples.
At the moment, Israel still behaves as if it can use force to secure its presence. Just the other day Israel made an incredibly tactless (and apparently unsubstantiated) announcement that the US had pledge US$ 10 billion to help Israel rebuild its economy. I think more than a few people were put off by that announcement. It is also a slap in the face for the many Arabs and other non-Jewish people who would be affected by the US-led war with Iraq.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2867619.stm
The fact that Israel has bankrupt itself in part by spending on weapons and security measures demonstrates its failed concept as a nation. To me, Israel smells of those "white elephant" projects where too much money, people and resources are poured into some pipe dream that a few misguided souls dreamt up against conventional wisdom. In order to become successful, Israel needs to remain secular, play down the Jewish faith and be absolutely impartial to Jews and non-Jews. This will take a lot of time and courage from all parties to achieve. If this were to ever happen it would represent a complete reversal of the hate and suffering we now see.
Vox Canadiana
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Contributor: codc01
Date: 2003-03-16 04:50:40
Please read my comments in the: Israel, Palestine et le Projet Liberté thread. In summary, both Palestinians and Israel are at fault - its not only Palestinian's fault. The isssue is very complex indeed. Palestinians are at fault for not getting rid of the terrorist groups - lack of political will (no they can't do that anymore since Israel completely destroyed Palestine's infrastructure)... And Israel is at fault for not stopping colonization and not accepting sharing Jerusalem with the Palestinians...
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