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Thank you for participating in the Dialogue on Foreign Policy. The interactive web site is now closed. The Minister's report will appear on this web site once it is released.

This Forum is bilingual, and participants post messages in their language of choice.

Policide ,Police and The UN

Contributor: jwitt

Date: 2003-03-16 16:44:49


fatmomma

The issue of Israel and the Palestinians is deeply complex and needs to be approached in an historical context. Unfortunately, the media presents the conflict with deliberate bias toward one side or the other. It is quite difficult to find any reporting which is truly balanced, as opposed to badly polarized and unhelpful. I see the polarization of opinion toward one side or the other as a major part of the problem as opposed to part of the solution. I would have to cite comments such as the following as a prime example: "IMO Israel is extremely dysfunctional. Its government is a total failure to its people, both Jews and Arabs. Its complete failure as a viable nation state is a primary reason why it is so dependent on the US and has dragged the US into confrontation with Arab fundamentalists. It is also a good example of how organized religion can sometimes poison the minds of people. As things stands, Israeli government policies have a good chance of triggering WWIII".

As someone who has spent considerable time in both Israel and the West Bank, as well as elsewhere in the middle east, I would have to describe such statements as biased, seemingly uninformed and unhelpful. Like it or not, Israel has a public health, education and transportation system which puts Canada's to shame, and to dismiss the country as a "complete failure" is nonsense.

Horrible atrocities have and continue to be made by both the Israelis and the Palestinians, and the behaviour of both sides must be condemned, as does the current and past behaviour of many Arab countries who have deliberately fuelled the conflict by using the Palestinians as dupes and poster children for their own ends, and completely failed to do anything tangible or meaningful to improve their condition. You are quite correct that Sharon is a major problem. His program of wanton destruction will ensure a steady stream of well indoctrinated Palestinian youths with explosive belts for the forseeable future. However, he could also be described as a democratic reaction (albeit a misguided and unfortunate one)to Yasser Arafat's response (violence and bombings)to the real and rather extensive concessions (these included east Jerusalem and the removal of most settlements) made by Ehud Barak. Bad leadership on both sides has historically, and continues today to create serious obstacles. The US has a clear bias toward the Israelis while the Europeans have a clear bias toward the Palestinains. There just doesn't seem to be much in the way of balance anywhere, and this polarization of opinion in the West only serves the purposes of extreme elements among both the Palestinians and Israelis.

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Policide ,Police and The UN

Contributor: Vox

Date: 2003-03-17 19:14:29


You wrote:

"... I see the polarization of opinion toward one side or the other as a major part of the problem as opposed to part of the solution. I would have to cite comments such as the following as a prime example: "IMO Israel is ..."

I wish to correct you on your mistaken assumption.

IMO, there is no polarization as I only stated my opinion of Israel. I did not compare Israel to any other entity so that can be no polarization. Perhaps you subconsciously believed that I would naturally criticize Israel in deference to the Palestinians. My views were absolute - Israel is completely dysfunctional and its policies are unsustainable regardless of whom it is oppressing.

Israel is a total failure because it believes it can only exist by subjugating another people. The "fact" that, as you say, (Israel) can boast of "... a public health, education and transportation system which puts Canada's to shame..." only demonstrates how inhumane its policies are.

If a government can afford to be so generous to its own people then how can it justify its cruel and indiscriminate policies of punishing and crushing another people? It is curious that you should used a materialistic measure to validate your contention that Israel is not dysfunctional. IMO a person is most dysfunctional when he/she values material trappings beyond that of showing human dignity to another.

By its reprehensible and ineffective policies, the Israeli government is actually robbing its own people of the soul that it claims the Jewish faith bestows them with. I grant that you have visited Israel and the West Bank but I gather you did not visit any Palestinians while you were there. I personally have no desire or need to visit either of those places. I do admit I am making my judgement from a distance and I am open to more illuminating views if you have them.

Finally, I wish to add that I also have a very poor impression of the Palestinian "representation". I understand the impossible situation Israel finds itself in when it is expected to work with the corrupt Palestinian Authority. However, Israel's policy of indiscriminate punishment and annexation of people's homes will only create more injustice and justify future opposition. The tragic death yesterday of 23-year old Rachel Corrie should be a graphic example of how out-of-control Israel's aggressive policies have become. How can anyone believe their mission is so important that they would even risk driving a bulldozer over a defenseless young woman who is only trying to prevent destruction of people's homes? Can you now say "dysfunctional"?

Israel seems bent on achieving "victory" by successfully oppressing its detractors and non-Israeli inhabitants. It is a hopeless cause because it will never find peace this way. Locating Israel in Palestine was a big mistake from the beginning - a mistake that the European nations as well as Canada and the US must share equally with Israel, for it was the rejection of the Jews by these nations that led them to find a separate home. IMO, if Israelis want to be free from the threat of violence, an original goal for a homeland, they must co-exist and blend in more with the peoples of the region. Otherwise, Israelis will continue to live with an "outpost" mentality and the violence will only become more tragic.



Vox Canadiana

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Policide ,Police and The UN

Contributor: fatmomma

Date: 2003-03-17 21:42:50


Very well said Vox. I agree completely

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Policide ,Police and The UN

Contributor: codc01

Date: 2003-03-18 13:20:05


I agree entirely with your point of view. I think your analysis is unbiased and very objective.

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Policide ,Police and The UN

Contributor: jwitt

Date: 2003-03-18 19:49:21


Vox,

I do understand where your coming from, in part. However, before I comment more fully on your response, I'd like some clarification on one point. You state "Israel is a total failure because it believes it can only exist by subjugating another people". Have you arrived at this conclusion on the basis of current Likud policies? or are there additional points you can present to support your hypothesis?- please elaborate. Also, I think we may both be guilty of pre-supposing a bit too much eg- "I gather you did not visit any Palestinians while you were there". One of the more memorable experiences (but not the fondest) of the time I spent living in the mideast was when I was detained by the Israeli Border Police while I was trying to hitch a ride from Nabulus to the Megiddo area after spending a few days with some Palestinian friends of mine.

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Policide ,Police and The UN

Contributor: Vox

Date: 2003-03-21 14:54:48


Thank you for your reply and clarification. The fact that you have Palestinian friends does help to explain and lend credibility to your views. What do your Palestinian friends think of the Israeli government?

As for presupposing and letting our egos get ahead of sensible judgement, I can honestly say this is not the case with my opinion of Israel. I perceive that it is also not the case for you in your opinions. I have no personal stakes in Israel or Palestine except for the seemingly unending tragedy and peril that their situation represents. My opinions are the product of years of observation and debates with my friends.

My opinion is that the current Israeli government and its policies mirror the views of hard-line Jewish cultural elements. These policies are basically racist and morally unconscionable. I do appreciate the impossible situation that Israel finds itself in. There are many intractable elements to the Palestinian milieu as well as the manner in which it has attracted fanatical Islamic support from outside Palestine.

To start with I think it was a monumental mistake to locate Israel in its biblical site. If people worry the US action in Iraq may result in a clash of religions then we have no further to look than Israel. The only way to avoid making Israel's first mistake a fatal one is to have Israel integrate with Palestine and embrace the surrounding peoples.

At the moment, Israel still behaves as if it can use force to secure its presence. Just the other day Israel made an incredibly tactless (and apparently unsubstantiated) announcement that the US had pledge US$ 10 billion to help Israel rebuild its economy. I think more than a few people were put off by that announcement. It is also a slap in the face for the many Arabs and other non-Jewish people who would be affected by the US-led war with Iraq.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2867619.stm

The fact that Israel has bankrupt itself in part by spending on weapons and security measures demonstrates its failed concept as a nation. To me, Israel smells of those "white elephant" projects where too much money, people and resources are poured into some pipe dream that a few misguided souls dreamt up against conventional wisdom. In order to become successful, Israel needs to remain secular, play down the Jewish faith and be absolutely impartial to Jews and non-Jews. This will take a lot of time and courage from all parties to achieve. If this were to ever happen it would represent a complete reversal of the hate and suffering we now see.



Vox Canadiana

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