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Canada Not OK

Contributor: Fleabag

Date: 2003-03-24 20:39:57

What you say about Bush Jr. is sad but true. It is too bad he is convinced 'might makes right' but he is affecting the world like no other recently.

I diagree, though, that Judeo/Christian values were the basis for greatness. They were only 'paragons of virtue' by default, for their ideals already existed. They began to 'rend the world asunder' by melding church and state, and thereby 'pidgeon-holing' virtue rather than diversifying it.

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Canada Not OK

Contributor: Vox

Date: 2003-03-25 21:30:23

Fleabag:

I think you may have mis-read "Invitation"'s message.

You wrote "...What you say about Bush Jr. is sad but true. It is too bad he is convinced 'might makes right' ..."

But "Invitation" actually wrote "... I like George Bush. One may not agree with him on all issues, but it is refreshing to listen to a leader that at least has some sense of conviction... It has been so long since we had a leader in either of our countries with any strength of character we simply don't recognize what that sounds like..."

You seem to think Bush is a tyrant but Invitation is praising Bush for being inspired by his beliefs. Invitation would seem to advocate for leaders who actually have convictions and follow through on them. I don't see how Invitation would see that as "sad" or if it necessarily have anything to do with 'might makes right'.

IMO, 'might simply makes coercion possible' and a nation which has the means to coerce a tyrant to disarm is an asset to the world community. I do not believe the US wanted to have this war at all costs. Its actions are consistent with it wishing to avoid violence and death. I would however say that Bush was determined to affect a "regime change". I agree that there is no other option with Saddam because he is incorrigible and is too dangerous to leave in power.

As for your comment that "... Judeo/Christian values were the basis for greatness...". I don't think that is what Invitation wrote.

Invitation wrote "... our Christian/Judeo heritage, which formed the basis of our culture and values and laws. Now, in favour of "multi-culturalism" we "interpret" through the Supreme Court the social agenda of the day. What this produces is a society without backbone and a breeding ground for those whose aim is power and control for whatever they deem their purposes to be..."

What I believe Invitation said is that Canada's multi-culturalism causes great confusion and indecision amongst Canadians over the interpretation of Canadian values and laws because Canada used to be founded upon a more consistent set of cultural principles. Canadians are now uncertain if it is deemed acceptable to uphold those principles that made Canada a great country to live in. In place of those principles Canadians are now forced to accept such a diverse and broad range of social mores and standards that it opens the door to "unscrupulous" people who feel they can use multi-cultural excuses to disguise "immoral" practices as an ethnic right.

Like you, I also do not think "... Judeo/Christian values were the basis for greatness..." as western civilization had a history of great hypocrisy and utter failures. I don't think it was the values that were bad. I think they were exploited and misrepresented by unscrupulous people. The failure was in the people who recognized the evil and did nothing to correct it. Just as it probably was in Iraq when people turned a blind eye to Saddam's abuses in earlier days and simply accepted it as a "cultural thing" of a distant people. Well, that faraway culture is now having a major impact on us at home.

Vox Canadiana

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Canada Not OK

Contributor: cfallon

Date: 2003-03-27 17:54:09

I would also add, to Vox's lucid comments (as usual) that western civilization has pre-Christian, non-Judaic roots. Afterall, who were Socrates, Plato and Aristotle?

Are we forgetting how fundamental they were to shaping the way we think today?

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Canada Not OK

Contributor: Fleabag

Date: 2003-03-28 19:40:17

It is I who have been unclear. By 'sad', I mean that for some time, no one has shown conviction on anything to a world-take-notice degree. (Except, I suppose, fanatical terrorists).
As for the 'Judeo/Christian' value systems, I have heard it argued from the 'religious-right' that morality is a biblical invention, and that no one who is non-religious can possess morality. It is to this notion that I disagree. (Not that I think 'Invitation' was espousing this)
While Canada may be experiencing problems with interpretations of law to appease everyone, and thereby pleasing no one, we are in a way a 'miniature earth' within our borders, and while we may have not gotten it exactly right yet, we are on the right track. We must find a way for all cultures and beliefs to co-habitate with the best interests of the community and the individual foremost in our 'hearts and minds'. Canada truly faces the greatest challenge because of our diversity, but can be a model for the rest of the world if we do it right.
The first thing I would try to get rid of is 'political correctness', when the truth will do just fine.

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Canada Not OK

Contributor: cfallon

Date: 2003-03-31 10:19:52

I agree: Canada is a "miniature, BUT DEMOCRATIC Earth".

What Canada proves is that all cultures, religions and ways of life THRIVE in democracy.

Canada will survive the mob that runs our parliament right now, and once it has, I hope it will emerge as a voice for democracy across the globe.

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Canada Not OK

Contributor: fatmomma

Date: 2003-04-03 07:39:04

We are not ruled by a mob; thank goodness we have a reational thinking government at this time. I do hope the world will survive the "mob" ruling the USA which is trying to force its aggressive views on the world.Mr Harper would have us guilty of the atrocities and poor judgement of the present American administration. Hopefully, the American people will soon recognize the errors of judgement of the present regime. (Many do already)
What Canada proves is that all cultures and religions can live together side by side with respect and cooperation.

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Canada Not OK

Contributor: cfallon

Date: 2003-04-03 13:54:44

I agree with you on what Canada proves.

Ironically, we both agree on this and it leads us to totally opposite conclusions.

Fatmomma, you must find this interesting. I would be very curious to sit down with you and try and figure out how our shared values lead to entirely different conclusions. (And don't tell me I'm brainwashed by US propaganda - cause I'll just say you are brainwashed by Canadian propaganda!)

:)

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Canada Not OK

Contributor: fatmomma

Date: 2003-04-04 23:48:11

I think it is because you may believe that you can just have instant democracy. This is not what I believe. Change must come slowly in steps as ours did; otherwise it may lead to corruption and poor economy. People can come into our established system and not upset an already established practice. But for a whole nation to suddenly have democracy thrust upon them can create many problems. Before you can have a good democracy; you must have the people to be able to understand how it works. With no previous experience they would make many serious economic mistakes and blame democracy and distrust it. As they have always had all the important country wide decisions made for them ; it would be simple for a corrupt government to take over.
You would be wrong to say I am brainwashed by Canadian propagand because many of my views have been shaped by information from Americans and American sites but mainly by my own logic.

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Canada Not OK

Contributor: codc01

Date: 2003-04-05 05:17:41

Again, this is my opinion of the world view as well (not much related to Iraq). Countries have to learn by themselves how to go into democracy, our western society evolved into democracies over a very long period of time (e.g : Magna Carta, the French Revolution)... Its a very slow process, but i think its the only process we can accept (except in cases when there is a clear genocide in that country)...

Western countries, with their values,
should help as much as possible the countries which want to become democratic... But there should not be any direct interference (except again in the case of genocide or such horrible crimes)...

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