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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: Fleabag

Date: 2003-04-03 21:49:26

While I agree with some of your message, there are a few points I could make as to why we should have taken the stand we did.
Firstly, defying UN resolutions. Many countries have defied the UN, so that argument is somewhat invalid. Israel has defied them for a longer period, in a greater number, and has actually shot and killed UN workers. (and denied them medical assistance). If Iraq did this, it would have been front page news in the west.

Secondly, public debate is sorely needed, and Mr. Blair deserves some commendation for standing up to speak his mind.
Mr. Bush, on the other hand, refused an offer to debate Saddam Hussein publicly, when this could have gone a long way to 'bring truth out in the open' but I believe that would have been the last thing Mr. Bush wants.
Finally, I must say that while deciding to back a UN resolution, not just a 'coalition of the coerced' resolution, was the right thing to do. It may seem on the surface like an excuse, but it would have been far more damaging to our relations if we would have said "You made your bed, you must lie in it. Your greed-driven manipulation of world affairs has made you the most hated nation on earth. Why should we support yet another aggressive, greedy action when your motives are so clear? Your policy has been unchanged for decades, America #1, all else yield, by hook or by crook".

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: RCGGILLIS

Date: 2003-04-05 12:15:52

I must that I still disagree that we should not be involved in this comment. My reasons have less to do with Mr. bush (and I will say that I fully support the Rt. Hon. Blair - he has shown true leadership), but rather it harkens back to the days of late 1960s.

I find it most odd that the people I find that best show the reasons why we should be involved in Iraq come from the historical left. It was Escott Reid in 1968 that stated:
"No nation has the right to try and solve its problems by methods which involve the destruction of the fundamental rights and freedoms of its citizens. These fundamental rights and freedoms include the right to protection by the state from mob tyranny and the right to a fair trial. This is what national and international declarations and statutes on fundamental freedoms are all about."

That sounds like a good policy to me. I wish we were following it with the current war on Iraq.

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: Barretm82

Date: 2003-04-05 16:32:41

Hi RCGGILLIS,

Are you saying we should wait for mushroom clouds on our soil before we stop Saddam or his sons?

Do you think Saddam is nuts enough to pass WMD to a 3rd party? Would you trust Saddam with our lives?

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: RCGGILLIS

Date: 2003-04-06 14:59:42

Barretm82,

Actually, I do agree wit the US/UK coalition of the willing. The point I was trying to make is that in the past, as noted by Escott Reid, Canada stood for something. We were able to make the tough moral decisions that were required of us. We stood along side our NATO allies and worked with the US in NORAD to ensure that we were safe. It was then they were worked in the multilateral environment under Pearson to establish peacekeeping efforts around the world.

I think Canada should be involved in the war on Iraq. The Iraqi people are the ones having their rights violated by their own government. I think we as Canadians know that the regime of Saddam is wrong, and thus we should be standing up against him, irrespective of the UN. I think I have articulated my position better then in the above post if you care to read them.

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: Barretm82

Date: 2003-04-06 17:19:23

Thanks for clearing that up. :)
Yeah, sometimes we miss things when we read too quickly. oops... :)

Good to see you on the forum.

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: Fleabag

Date: 2003-04-06 22:34:54

While I agree with the text of your speech, as it were, I disagree that the US has this as practical dogma.
Canada disagreed with the US that the fundamental issue behind this action (It cannot be called 'war' because none was declared) was the issue of Human Rights. The US has tried to portray itself as acting under a UN resolution, #1441 among others.
The US is not acting to carry out any UN resolution, however. They are acting out of the United States Presidential Security Directive paper submitted by George Bush in 1991. Every President must submit one to the 'nation'. In George Jr's, he qualified the US right to 'pre-emptive strikes wherever the US sees a threat'.
Really, a Canadian stance on the subject didn't matter, for the US' actions were a foregone conclusion since last year. We must stand with a democracy of nations even if it means taking a stand against a friend who has chosen to 'go it alone' against the world.

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: codc01

Date: 2003-04-07 06:27:37

Good points.... :)

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: Barretm82

Date: 2003-04-07 15:13:04

Fleabag, there is a side to this you are not seeing. Give it a few months...

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: cfallon

Date: 2003-04-08 13:09:53

There is no such thing as a democracy of nations.

The US did not "go it alone" against the world. There are nations who agree with the US course of action.

Canada did not agree because of our internal politics (Quebec) and our slavish love of an institution which gives enormous power to countries without any burden of accompanied responsibility.

The UN resolutions process is an utter disgrace and its failure to act anywhere is what killed the UN.

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: codc01

Date: 2003-04-08 14:29:18

There you again...

Nothing more to add.

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: fatmomma

Date: 2003-04-09 00:53:01

Not nations; leaders. Most of people of Britain were against the war.
Canadian people did not support his war because of the lack of proof that Iraq possessed any weapons of mass destruction. The UN was still getting cooperation from Iraq.
Bush and Blair lied about proofs of Iraq's WMD by producing fraudulent documents.
Quebec was not the only province that did not support the invasion of Iraq.
Cretien's reasons for not supporting this invasion are not as clear as I would like; but I am glad he made the decision he did.
Canada does not owe an apology to the Coalition countries;
The coalition countries should be the only countries to fund the rebuilding of Iraq. They caused the destruction; they should pay for their damage.
Canada should pay our share to rebuild Afghanistan.
Alexa McDonough is correct; Canada should take a strong stand and declare our position opposing this action of the coalition countries.
The UN should consider sanctions against the USA / Britain. Perhaps they should only be allowed to import enough oil for homeland use; none for their military.
Israel should be told to disarm or face sanctions.
I am really only venting my anger but something must be done to prevent the USA from attacking any country they wish

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: Barretm82

Date: 2003-04-09 10:47:31

Fatmomma, You have slowly lost credibility with Barretm82, so what more is there to say... Go ahead, rant on... Sad but true.

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: fatmomma

Date: 2003-04-10 23:15:15

No problem Barrett; you haven't made any strong argument for your side that I can see.
My main objection with this invasion was in Bush's rush into this invasion. He could have waited for Saddam to balk. Saddam would have quit cooperating with the inspectors eventually if he had anything to hide. Then the world would have been behind this invasion including Arab/ Muslim countries. It is the backlash against this pre emptive attack with tainted proofs that I believe will bring more hatred to Western countries. The Iraq liberation (if that is the object of this invasion) should have been accomplished by Iraq initiative with a coalition of the willing in a supporting role only.
A hand picked (by America) Iraq government will be looked on as suspect.
I believe a country must be strong enough to lead the fight for its freedom if it is to be strong enough to hold on to that freedom

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Cellucci Speech

Contributor: codc01

Date: 2003-04-09 11:19:00

I agree with you, your points are quite valid... The arab countries are actually going to the UN General Assembly - its a bit overdue, but they said they will do it...

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