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France sells Weapons to Iraq last month. (January 03).

Contributor: Barretm82

Date: 2003-03-09 20:03:43

…"The helicopters are military assets, I think they are armed with guns and likely will be used in action at some point over their operational life time. So yes it is relevant."

Now it is relevant- perhaps you should have cited a source or even mentioned that you "think" the helicopters would be "armed with guns"...something you didn't do. I can think of many uses for helicopters, that do not include weaponry.”….

-----You are trying to deflect my point, you should know very well that military choppers are included in military assets, if you don’t truly understand the concept, then this is an indicator of less experience.-----

…."I didn't assume you said they were on par, all I mean is that is how you come across on the forum."

So even though I said at the very beginning of my post that "If Canada is ever looking to stop the proliferation of weapons through business deals and arms trades, perhaps Canada should stop selling arms to the world..." you thought I was making a comparison because I gave examples of many countries and companies that trade arms? I don't see how- when my point was so clearly stated….

-----By listing other countries we export to; you are also equally saying that we also should not import weapons. kn_aeshap said, “but we can do something about Canada- all we have to do is stop participating.” Yet when I give you a practical example between Canada and N. Korea and ask for your thoughts. I still haven’t received a direct reply. I got this response;

….Kn_aeshap says, “Now it is relevant- perhaps you should have cited a source or even mentioned that you "think" the helicopters would be "armed with guns"...

----Like I said above, the helicopters are a military asset. Yet you still don’t address my point on whether Canada and N. Korea should be treated the same when it comes to importing Military assets?

In regards to less experience Kn_aeshap says, "As amusing as it is that you've managed to come to this conclusion, I'd like for you to provide me with some sort of evidence for your claim.

----Ok, I hope you can see my points above on why I though you are coming across as less experienced. Please keep in mind that I never ever said you are less experienced, just that is how you come across to me in this text forum. I think that is were I may have upset you, if I did so I didn’t intend too.

….."P.S. As to the Wizard of Oz quote, well I was never very good with cartoons... ;)"

The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was written by Lyman Frank Baum and published on May 15th, 1900- it became the biggest selling children's book of the year. And if you're not very good with "cartoons" -as you say- you probably shouldn't choose to quote them.”….

-----I tossed the Oz part in as a cookie. :)

Never the less, it should be interesting to see if we can work this conflict out. :)

(Yes, I have some spare moments this Sunday night, now I'll get back to reading the three pillars now). :)

peace.

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France sells Weapons to Iraq last month. (January 03).

Contributor: kn_aeshap

Date: 2003-03-09 21:28:46

"You are trying to deflect my point, you should know very well that military choppers are included in military assets, if you don’t truly understand the concept, then this is an indicator of less experience."

I fully understand the concept, actually...but it is not my fault that you refuse to be specific- if you had meant "military choppers" you should have stated as such- instead of just saying "helicopters". In no way was I deflecting your point...for the sake of a decent conversation, you need to say what you mean more often...

"By listing other countries we export to; you are also equally saying that we also should not import weapons."

I was not listing the countries that Canada sells weapons to in order to say that we should not import weapons. I think you've gone a bit far off the track...I've restated what my point was a few times now- if you don't get it, I'm afraid I can't help you. And I was giving examples of countries that we sell to, I cited a news article about American companies and their arms sales- for example and interest, nothing more. You see...when people state something that they believe to be factual, I expect them to back it up with something- so when I talk about Canada having exported arms around the world, I give examples. So many people using these forums refuse to regularly back up statements with citations. Am I to just accept what other people say? I think not. If you happened to read too far into it, and assumed that I was making a comparison of some sort, I'd like to direct you to the first lines of my original response where I stated what my point was.

"Like I said above, the helicopters are a military asset. Yet you still don’t address my point on whether Canada and N. Korea should be treated the same when it comes to importing Military assets?"

No, I do not believe that North Korea and Canada should not be treated in the same fashion when it comes to the import of military assets.

"Ok, I hope you can see my points above on why I though you are coming across as less experienced. Please keep in mind that I never ever said you are less experienced, just that is how you come across to me in this text forum. I think that is were I may have upset you, if I did so I didn’t intend too."

So...you're thinking that I am inexperienced is due to the fact that you refuse to be specific? I see now ;) It's funny that, in my experience when people are looking to get a direct point across, they are specific in what they say...how unfortunate for all of us, that you are not. It's not upsetting really, just rather time consuming.

"I tossed the Oz part in as a cookie."

I just expected that people who claim to be fairly experienced in this form of discussion, would be able to use proper and correct quotations.

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France sells Weapons to Iraq last month. (January 03).

Contributor: Barretm82

Date: 2003-03-09 23:19:39

…Kn_aeshap states,”No, I do not believe that North Korea and Canada should not be treated in the same fashion when it comes to the import of military assets.”…

Thank you for that to the point answer, which is in my view an experienced answer. :)

You say these countries should not be treated in the same fashion, I agree with you. How can kn_aeshap suggest in realistic terms, “but we can do something about Canada- all we have to do is stop participating.”

If we stop participating are we not setting up the Canada for eventual domination by dictators? Would you agree that the only time there will be hope for military disarmament and no need for import/export is when all countries are stable democracies?

In regards to the helicopter example, I did specifically speak of helicopters in the context of a military asset that Canada would responsibly employ. However, I will let it be… :)

On the plus side I am glad you have the stamina to run this debate through with me.

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France sells Weapons to Iraq last month. (January 03).

Contributor: kn_aeshap

Date: 2003-03-16 14:01:06

"If we stop participating are we not setting up the Canada for eventual domination by dictators? Would you agree that the only time there will be hope for military disarmament and no need for import/export is when all countries are stable democracies?"

I think it to be a fairly practical suggestion- to say that not selling arms is unrealistic or not practical, scares me in a strange way. To think that people might believe that we cannot go without the import and export of arms is alien to me...

I don't really see how discontinuing the sales of arms to nation states around the world would set us up for domination by dictators- readily placing the weapons in their hands does make that prospect seem a tad more likely though.

And I'm not really sure that the world could be disarmed if each of the countries within were "stable democracies" (whatever that happens to mean)- I don't believe that present forms of democracy are the solution to any of the problems that the world currently faces.

"In regards to the helicopter example, I did specifically speak of helicopters in the context of a military asset that Canada would responsibly employ. However, I will let it be… :)"

You should've used a specific example, regardless of what context you thought you were speaking in. You'll have to excuse how anal I can be about these things- being specific is of the utmost importance...after all, we've only got our words to go on. It might be easier to discuss whether or not we should be allowed to purchase arms, say from England, considering our actions and their actions around the world as of late- in Afghanistan. Or we could discuss whether or not we should be selling arms to Turkey, considering their human rights record, so on and so forth.

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France sells Weapons to Iraq last month. (January 03).

Contributor: fatmomma

Date: 2003-03-16 18:55:21

I really don't believe that Canada is a big exporter of military arms. We cannot even adequately arm our own small military force. What we do sell are probably mainly parts or items that can be used for peaceful purposes too; such as helicopters. I do not think it is a big issue here

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France sells Weapons to Iraq last month. (January 03).

Contributor: cfallon

Date: 2003-03-18 16:33:00

Well, at least SNC-Lavalin and Bombardier are involved in weapon systems design and manufacture.

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France sells Weapons to Iraq last month. (January 03).

Contributor: codc01

Date: 2003-03-19 06:44:41

That is still comparably small compared to Lockheed and Dassault...

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